Burnout to Balance: An Introspective Guided Discussion on Recovery and Reengagement

Diana Pastrana

Love that. Okay, we're recording. So, as Emily said, I'm Diana pastrana. I am just going to share my screen here, and we are talking about a topic that I have become absolutely obsessed with lately, which is burnout and trying balance in life. Right? This is a big topic. Now, hold on, I am just pulling up. Okay, well, I'm going to do this presentation without speaker notes. Let's see how this goes. So I started a company about a year ago focused around conflict. So this is kind of a big thing. And I knew even before I had my first client that burnout was going to be something that I was easily subjected to, and I was burned out leaving a job, right? And so it was something I was experiencing, something I was thinking about, something I was working through. So I'm very excited to be presenting with you today, and I'm going to make this very interactive. We're going to start with a short bit of a presentation, and then we are going to break out into groups, and I'll go through all that when we get to it. But let's talk about the stressors that lead to burnout.

Diana Pastrana

So when I was doing a bunch of research on this, the number one and possibly the only thing that people were talking about was workload. Okay? And this is true, right? Workload is a huge stressor that leads to burnout, but it is such a small piece of the puzzle. So I want to start by going with an annotation. Or you can just unmute and share. If you are a culture, community regular, you'll know that if you scroll up to the top of your screen, you can hit annotate, and then it'll bring you up an option for text, and then you can put text in this box. So let's start by annotating. What are some things in your life, not just your work in your life, that are stressors, that are leading to burnout right now? Nobody's burned out or nobody. Okay, here we go. We got some people clicking. Lack of space for things other than work, family care to do list managing, competing priorities. Great. Lack of connection, moving. Yeah. Aging parents and health issues are really hitting me hard this morning. That's real busy schedules. Lack of respect from leadership. Personal relationships, job security, uncertainty.

Diana Pastrana

Yes. Mental health. We're hearing about mental health in the workplace so much more frequently now. So I think that there's a ton of things, right. Conflict. I see conflict in workplaces all the time. So that can be interpersonal conflict like people are talking about with relationships that they have. It can be role conflict. You might just constantly being up against somebody else in a different role. It might be a lack of alignment with values or responsibilities. It could be a lack of training or knowing what to do. It could be all sorts of things. But you see that this world is not contained in one very small thing, which is what people are talking about. People are just saying, take breaks, take vacation time. It's like, no, it's way more than that. This is our whole lives that are creating these stressors. So I am going to clear the annotate. Thank you to whoever just did that. All right, so we know there's a bunch of things. So this is something that you may have all seen. Oh, so I should say right now, get out a notebook and pen, get out your Word document, whatever you take notes on.

Diana Pastrana

This is going to be a very self reflective journey for us today. So this is called the Wheel of Life. And generally I see this. I used to plant, like, get a monthly planner and I would build this out every month and it was great tracking. And generally they talk about fulfillment. But today I want to reframe this because you can use this visual model in really any way that suits you to track things. So how burned out do you feel in each of these categories? So your career, or maybe if you're a student, your education, maybe you're doing both right now. Maybe you need to split that column right in half and fill them both up. You can also do this without the visualization. You can just do a list of ranking these one through ten of how burned out you are. Financial. You might be burned out at work, and that might be partially because you may not be getting the financial reward or recognition. So finances are still stressful in your life, your home environment, your either working relationships or your friendships, your romance or your lack thereof, your health. We talked about that a lot in the last slide.

Diana Pastrana

Health is a huge thing. And it's not just your health, it's other people's health that you love and that surrounds you. Your family, we love them, but they can be stressful. They can burn us out. And then your spiritual or religious connection or maybe that's not something this is what it would look like filled out. This is just an example. And then you can kind of start to see this heat map, right, of what you are processing. Where is your stress coming in from your life? Where is it not? Because where it's not is where you can lean on to help yourself build connections, right? So like, in this example, I've got relationships as something that's not burning me out right now. So that might be a really great thing to lean on. Spirituality is low, so that might be something that's really great to lean on as well. But this is going to look different for every person. And I would suggest doing this every once in a while, regularly checking in with yourself and saying, okay, what's changed? Right? Like six months ago I was really burned out at work and now I'm an eleven or now I'm a three and continue to track that.

Diana Pastrana

It really helps to give you kind of a snapshot over time. So I was trying to find this model and I went back and looked at my old planners that I had and every month I had filled this out and it was interesting how it changed. Some things stayed very solid, but some things definitely changed. So this is one way of looking at it. Another way of looking at it is taking those things that are those high level burnout things and thinking about what is in your control. So you may have seen this before. This is Stephen Cubby's model of proactivity. But thinking about what's in your control. So what are some things that are in your control? Your actions, your habits, your setting boundaries, you're keeping boundaries, the things that you do on a daily basis and then the next level zooming out a little bit is your sphere of influence, right? So this is something that my old boss would talk to me about all the time, right? Think about what's in your control. Think about what's in your influence. Some of us in a hierarchical organization have power, but most of us need to lean on influence.

Diana Pastrana

Now, I'm not one who's always thinking about gratitude and positivity and stuff like that. If you guys know me, I can be a little cynical, right? I'm a glass half full kind of gal. But I really do believe that if you think about your mindset around control, you can expand it into your circle of influence. And then finally, the third role of this is concern. So the third circle, the wider circle is your concern. These are the things that you cannot influence and you cannot control. And these can be things that really add to burnout, right? They can be the icing on the cake, they can be the bad weather, they can be the economy, they can be other people's actions, other people's thoughts, what other people think of you, which I would like to think you can influence a little bit, but really you can't. It is out of your control. So starting to phrase things in this way of what do I have control over in this situation? Right? So say it's your wedding day and it's raining. You cannot control the weather. That is a concern there. You could wish and hope and pray, but nothing's going to change that.

Diana Pastrana

So what can you control in that situation? Right? You can control your mindset. You might be able to control planning ahead in preparation, getting a tent or whatever it is, but you can prepare for what you cannot control. But you have to leave those outside. So the ideal makeup of this circle would be that the control circle would expand, the influence circle would expand and the concern circle would lessen, right? So that we can continue to focus on what's in our impact this is a quote that I'm sure most of you have heard before, but it is one that I have thought about so much in my life. Accept what you cannot change. Change what you cannot accept. So when we are feeling massively burned out, our fight or flight can really kick in, right? So where are we? Are we going to stay? Are we going to go? Are we going to continue to fight? Are we going to continue to advocate some of these stressors? Are things like very serious things, like microaggressions or even discrimination in the workplace, right? Like, these can be hard things to stand up and fight against over and over, time and time again.

Diana Pastrana

And so when you're doing that, thinking about accepting what you cannot change. So in your little notes that you're taking, I want you to make a short list of things that you know you cannot change that are adding to your burnout, things that are outside of your scope of influence, that are stressing you out and adding to this feeling of burnout. Getting a lot of faces that are very seriously thinking about this. So once you've taken a short list, I want you to just set those aside, right? Those are what we're going to say are facts, even if they're just truly what we believe, we cannot change. And then I also want you to think about what can you not accept? What are your deal breakers? What are things that you must be change in your situation? Maybe it's just your emotional state. Maybe it's something that is really stressing you out at work or at home. And a lot of this is just based on awareness, right? What we're aware of, we can change our mindset on. We can change our scope. We can think positively about or negatively. But if we're not even thinking about them, if we're not writing them down, then they're controlling us.

Diana Pastrana

So, story time. Once upon a time and I have this all written out, and I don't have my speaker notes up in front of me, so hopefully this goes okay. Once upon a time, there is a stressed out princess. And our princess is sitting in a lovely Epsom salt bath with the smells of coconut milk and essential oils, and things are just piling on in her kingdom, right? She is overwhelmed with conflict and work, and there is no end in sight. And this is the fourth time in a week she sat in a perfectly poured bath. And every other time, she has felt comforted and relaxed. But this time, this time she is feeling angry. She's feeling really pissed off. And as she sits in this bath, she's just frustrated, right? She doesn't know what to do. She's feeling like she's failed because she can't get past this feeling of pressure. She is sitting there and thinking about, how do I why am I feeling angry? First of all? Right, but then how do I get past this? So she starts Googling, because who doesn't want to use their phone in the bathtub? She starts Googling how to get past burnout, self care, all these things.

Diana Pastrana

And she's reading all these top ten lists of things to do, and she's thinking to herself, I have tried all of these. I have done all of these things. Why am I not getting better? So after any length of time of this, she gets out of the bath, changes into her comfiest pajamas, pours herself a big old glass of wine, and sits on the couch and complains to her partner, Prince Supportive. And she's droning on and on about her day, and Prince Supportive is being supportive and listening, right? And then finally says, it's almost like, oh, wait, hold on. I got to change my voice for this part. It's almost like you are experiencing 100 micro traumas every day and you need to process. And boom. This is a total mindset shift for our princess. And she changes her Google search. She starts looking into recovery, specifically trauma recovery. And this is where our story really begins. So this is where I had obviously, I don't know, maybe you guys thought you were the princess, but it's me. But this is where I had a really big mind shift. Shift mind. I'm not going to try again.

Diana Pastrana

A really big mind shift in processing burnout. So again, I was frustrated with this idea that everything was a directive. Take a bath, take a walk. I think, yes, this is an incomplete list of things I've tried, right? Turning off notifications. This is a great way to kind of silence the noise for yourself. Working out that didn't last long. Long walks with the dog on the lake, shores of Madison. Babs wine, meditation, vacation, isolation, more wine, complaining, gratitude, all of the wine, creative hobbies, mental health days. And then hanging out with friends, which is my favorite part because I can combine wine and complaining. So we try all these things. We do all these things, but we're not asking why do they work? And I'm not saying that none of these things help because I do regularly meditate, even though I put wine on this list more frequently. And it helps me. It centers me, but not knowing why I'm applying it and when is the disconnect. So I started asking myself, I took Leah's guidance into my heart and I said, I need to get curious. I need to start figuring out what questions are going to help guide me to figure out what I need in that moment.

Diana Pastrana

And so that's what I did. So I want you guys to draw yourself a little chart or just start making a list. A little T chart is all you really need. And we're going to start talking about we're not going to share this part. This is before our breakouts, but we're going to talk about before you felt burned out. I want you to think back on a time. Maybe it was pre COVID, maybe it was the first day of your job. Maybe it was six years ago. I don't know. But think about a time before you felt burned out. What traits did I have? Or you could also say, how would people have described me back then? Write down a couple of things that you identified with at that time. Were you a go getter? Were you an optimist? Were you trying to take on more work? Were you a perfectionist? Okay, next. What viewpoints did I hold? So what were your beliefs at that time? What did you think about the potential, your potential work's potential. And then finally, what brought me joy again, we're thinking back. We used to bring you joy. Maybe it still does, maybe it doesn't.

Diana Pastrana

And if I'm going too fast, just jot down a couple of quick notes and come back to this, right? All of these things are things that you can come back to time and time again. Now I want you to check in with yourself now. Think about today. How have I changed? So you had these traits before. Are they still traits that you hold? Are they still traits that you value? Do you feel like you've gotten wiser? What do I believe to be true? This can also be stated as what is the story I tell myself? We hear that sometimes, but so the viewpoints you used to have now, what do you believe to be true? Then? What emotions am I experiencing? Try to avoid just being, like, burned out. Think about what goes along with those emotions. Okay, so now we have our two lists side by side. Maybe you're still thinking about it. Maybe you're still processing it. That's fine. But I want you to think what has changed between point A and point B? And I want you to write down maybe a specific event, an occurrence, a conflict. Or maybe it's a series of events.

Diana Pastrana

Maybe it's a slow burn, right? Maybe you've noticed over time something has shifted, and you're just now thinking about it in a way that there has been change. Think about relationships. Think about what relationships might be burning you out. Or think about what relationships might be supporting you. Okay, so quick reminder be kind to yourself. Sometimes we go through these things, we're processing these things, and it turns into self deprecation or a little bit of self loathing or hate. And it's really important to do these exercises almost objectively, right? Like, look at the outside. What do you see? This will bring the awareness. And then I want you to pick kind of one thing that you're going to focus on today. It does not need to be the biggest, most apparent thing. It can be if you want it to be, but it doesn't have to be if you're not ready to process that, right? Now if you're not ready to maybe share somebody openly about this, then you can pick something smaller, something that seems more tackleable. Sometimes it's good to get an easy win, sometimes it's good to eat the frog. So you get to choose your journey today.

Diana Pastrana

So we are going to go pretty much for the rest of the session. We're going to do a self reflection and a group discussion. So we're going to start with an opportunity to take a couple of minutes to just write down your thoughts and journal on some questions. We're going to do this three different times so you'll have like one question each time and then we're going to go into small breakouts. So probably about three people. We're going to take about 10 minutes so we can do a quick introduction and then take about 3 minutes to share some of our thoughts. And then we're going to come back and we're going to do a short group share and we're going to do it all again. Okay? So now I was thinking about this. I was thinking about as I was preparing this presentation, if people would feel comfortable sharing because this is deeply personal stuff, right? But I just got back from a trip from Denmark not long ago and I had been obsessing over this idea of huga spelled Hy G E. And it's this idea of wellness and self care and a hug and warmth and coziness and all of these things encapsulated in it.

Diana Pastrana

But one of the things that I really took away from this concept that I learned about is that we oftentimes in the United States, or at least myself, I'm guilty of this think of self care as a very isolated thing. We think of the healing process as very isolated. But in huga it's not. It's done almost exclusively with friends and family and with people that we're connecting with. And it's so important to create connection with each other. And also it's very hard to think about these things unconstrained. So I really think there will be value in sharing together as a group because you might get a different perspective that you hadn't thought about that might work for you. I want you to be completely honest with yourself. Journaling, I would love for you to be completely honest in the breakouts, but if you feel that you want to share, what you're comfortable with is totally fine. So our first question, what do I need to feel mentally and physically safe right now? I think this is where people kind of get into the whole like, oh, take a bath, go for a walk, right? It's like allowing yourself mental space.

Diana Pastrana

It's giving yourself a feeling of that cozy. But this can be totally, this can be completely different things for you. So what do I need to feel mentally and physically safe right now? So if you're, you know, maybe this is where you turn off your notifications, but think again as unconstrained as you can about this. Emily, if you wouldn't mind getting breakout groups prepared, we'll jump into them in a couple of minutes here. Yes, I'm ready whenever you are. Just let me know. Okay, thank you so much. We're just going to think about this for a minute.

Diana Pastrana

I'm going to send you into breakout rooms again. I think we're talking about groups of three. Do a quick introduction to yourself and then talk about what do you need to feel mentally and physically safe right now. Now I think about these things is your right now might change very frequently. What works for you today might not work for you tomorrow. Take notes. Think about what other people are saying is going to work for them. So, Emily, send us in. All right, sounds great. If you have any issues, feel free to just pop out. I'll be in the main room and I can help you with anything, but we will see you back here in 10 minutes. Dan, I did not put you in a room, just so you know.

Participant

Awesome hit or miss right now.

Emily Smit

Yeah. I didn't know where you'd be at with Maisie.

Participant

Do you want to go outside?

Diana Pastrana

Cutie. Dan I totally didn't realize if I didn't do presentation mode that I didn't have my speaker notes. And I'm like, I can't go back on it now. I hope I know it. You got it. I don't know how there's got to.

Participant

Be a way in 2023 to do. All the things you want, but I don't know personally, leah does more than I do. I know well, I practiced it, so I'm stumbling a little bit. I think the overall message is getting across.Yeah.

Diana Pastrana

I love the questions.

Participant

Did you want to see people your. Slides and your speaker notes at one time? And I'm assuming there's a way to do that.

Diana Pastrana

Okay, I think we have most, if not everyone, back. How did that go? Is that a little nerve wracking to start sharing? Did it take a little bit of time to get your group momentum going? Did we just jump right in? Jumped right in, jumped in, jumped right in.

Participant

We jumped in.

Diana Pastrana

Does anybody want to share something that you found impactful either through answering this question for yourself or maybe someone in your group shared something that brought a new perspective to you? That's a requirement. Yeah. There you go. So I'm still, like, literally, I think from your first question of the day, I'm still reeling on that one. When you said, make a list of all the things that are causing you burnout that you cannot change. And I literally couldn't list a single thing. And that was just like an eye opening experience. Like, oh, my gosh, all these things that are causing me burnout, I actually have control over them. I've just been not doing that. And then that just led to a whole bunch more. So I just really appreciated that question because made me realize a lot more. Is that super empowering for you, then? Super empowering. And I was like, all right, get your shit together. Stop complaining about it and do something about it.

Participant

Yeah, you're never supposed to say get your shit together. You're supposed to say, get your Poop in a group. You have children.

Leah Roe

Troy? I have to get my Poop in a group. Never spent so much time thinking about what that actually visually means until now. Thank you, Troy.

Participant

Sorry.

Diana Pastrana

Anyone else with a takeaway on this? Was it a different experience to think about safety for yourself? Yes. I'm seeing a lot of head nods. Okay.

Participant

I was just going to share no, please. One of the themes that was, like, of my breakout was essentially space, but in different words. But that, like, to answer the question of what do you need to feel mentally and physically safe right now? Was just in different ways, like space and changing your environment or getting some. Sort of physical space and then time. And so it's just interesting that the. Whole group kind of came to that. Same place in some ways.

Participant

Diana, when you said, what hit me is that this could be what it is today, might not be what it was yesterday, might not be tomorrow. Five years ago, I wouldn't have even thought about some of the stressors that are in my life, and I'm hoping tomorrow they're not there.

Diana Pastrana

Yeah, I think about this a lot with my own experience. Sometimes to feel safe, I need to be alone, and sometimes that is the last thing I want. Sometimes I really need a hug, and that makes me feel safe, but it just totally depends on what the stressor is that's really influencing my life at that moment and how to move past that and what I need. So I want you guys I do this check in with myself. Kind of every time I feel myself getting overwhelmed, I think about, what do I need to feel mentally and physically safe right now? And sometimes that's an escape. Sometimes that's to dig in. Sometimes, like you said, it's space, right? It's just a little bit of space. And then you can think about how do you apply that space, right? Maybe that's the meditation. That's that mental space that you need. But maybe if you're trying to meditate and you're in one of those moments where you need a hug, it's just not going to work. And that's where we see that disconnect. Okay, I'm going to go back to sharing my screen, and I'm going to go to the next slide.

Diana Pastrana

So our next question, we're going to stay in the same breakout rooms so that we don't have to spend time on reintroductions and you guys can really kind of get to know and bond with the people that you are meeting with or you're in a breakout with. The next question is what and how do I need to process right now? So this kind of goes back to that initial set of questions saying like, what are we going to focus on today? What was I feeling before? What's changed? Maybe there's an event, maybe it's a relationship. I don't know what it is for you, right, but what do you need to process and then how are you going to process that now that you've given yourself this mental or physical safety? How are you going to process? Because when we don't process through these things, it ends up being like those trick candles on a birthday cake where you blow them out and you think you're good, and then the next day you go to work and they're on fire again because you haven't processed them. And you blow them out and the next day you come back and they're on fire again.

Diana Pastrana

And it just is a never ending streak. So thinking about what and how do you need to process right now and if your what changes, if you want to process something differently than you originally had written down in the previous exercise, that's totally fine. This is your journey. Let's just give ourselves a minute to think about this and write some stuff down. And then we're going to go into a six minute breakout. It's a little faster pace this time.

Diana Pastrana

Send people into breakout rooms. Yes. If you're still processing when you get to your room, that's fine too. We'll be back in 6 minutes. Welcome back. I know we just crossed the 930 time slot, so if people had to jump off, that's totally fine. But I think we're getting a couple more people coming in. So just in the interest of time and leaving some open space for discussion, I am going to give a homework assignment instead of doing another breakout. So if everyone can see my screen. The last question I have in this point of processing is what do I need to feel reconnected with myself and others right now? So this is probably the number one thing I hear about people who are experiencing burnout and that I have felt myself is that I don't feel like myself or I have a really hard time going home at the end of the day and connecting with family, connecting with my children, connecting with my peers. So again, this is going to be a deeply personal answer. So thinking about how do you reconnect and maybe there is a relationship at work or at home where you've been very focused on the outcome of an argument or a conflict, but you could focus on the relationship, you could focus on reconnection and maybe that would shift the outcomes for you.

Diana Pastrana

So I'm going to leave you with that. And then kind of my final thought is this is a great exercise to do personally, but this is also something that you can bring. To your team. This is something you can do repetitively. You can share, you can teach on this, right? These are resources. These are just questions that you could ask if someone's in your office and stressed out about something, it's like, okay, what do you need right now? What do you need to feel physically safe? What do you need to process? What do you need to reconnect? These are great things. They're quick questions that you can help somebody else process through. So continue to think about these things when you're recognizing those strong emotions or people are giving you the feedback that they're burned out. So that is it for me. Thank you all for coming. I know we have a little bit of time, if people have time, to open up the discussion, but my contact information is up there if anybody has any questions. I love connecting with people on LinkedIn and seeing your career and what you're doing, but also feel free to reach out to me directly by email.

Diana Pastrana

So thank you. Does anybody have questions or want to discuss further? I'm going to stop sharing my screen. We're back. You guys are so nice in the chat. Questions or thoughts?

Leah Roe

I'm leaving with more questions and answers, which I always love. I just have a lot more to reflect on, and I have action items. I got a lot of notes going on, so I just thank you, Diana. It was really helpful. And I think one of the powerful things to think about, putting myself in a leadership position of just thinking that burnout can be different for different people, and it can be different today than it was yesterday. And so just really getting curious with your people and asking those questions and supporting them in the way that they need, because it can't be like, oh, you're burned out. Here's my five steps to get better. One, take a bath. It's just not cookie cutter for everyone. So just leaning into that curiosity and holding that a courageous, non judgmental space for people and supporting them in the way that they need, I think is really important. Courageous, non judgmental space. I like that. Yeah, I have it tattooed on my arm. I'm just kidding. I don't.

Participant

Diana I literally took two pages of notes, and I'm just a bullet, usually, and I'm like, Good job. I enjoyed it. It did make me realize, though, that, I mean, five years ago versus now, there's definitely more stressors in my life and such, but it is okay. Someone's at my door. But sometimes you do need a professional to help you, too.

Diana Pastrana

Yes.

Participant

Okay, I need to go, guys. Take care, everyone.

Diana Pastrana

Bye, Troy. Bye, Troy. Yeah. Troy brings up a really good point. This is modeled off of trauma recovery, right? This is talking about some of the processes that people go through, but if that's something you're actually experiencing to the depth of needing help, don't try to do this on your own. That's a very good disclaimer. I probably should have started with that. Any other thoughts? I think it was pivotal for me.

Participant

Too, to just think of maybe some of the adjusts that I've made in my life because of the burnout that I had, where sometimes we don't always recognize that that was maybe burnout. And it kind of was almost out of our comfort zone where we were.Like, I'm going to take this leap.Because I know it's good for me and I know this is the next step I need it to take. So I think that was just helpful. You had really great questions that got my brain going, so thank you.And it was good to be here. Since I haven't been here in forever. So thank you for having me.

Diana Pastrana

Yeah, welcome back. One of the questions that kind of.

Participant

Comes up for me is and it was very much apparent when we did the T chart and kind of reflecting in the past, but then also the present is why is there so much more burnout and why are we experiencing that now? And just kind of reflecting on that a little bit too?

Participant

Because some of the things that I.Think were happened or things that I saw in my past are things that are still there now, but there's also different things and there's more and it's like, why is that so? I don't know.It's also got me thinking about that.

Diana Pastrana

A little bit too. Yeah, that's a big question I don't have the answer to. Right.

Participant

So I have a question I noticed on the Hollywood Squares here I was one of three males and the rest are all females. Is there any research into that as far as experiencing burnout or identifying burnout in the genders?

Diana Pastrana

I don't know. But I have a question back for you. Did you relate to my princess story? I do know that the audience is slightly more female oriented for the culture community. So I took the leap and went with my princess best self for my story. So I hope I didn't isolate you in that way.

Participant

No, all good.

Participant

I was going to comment is it, Kate, on your question about why, which is this is not based in in like, you know, research, but something that I feel like, at least for me.

Diana Pastrana

That no matter what you did or.

Participant

Didn’t experience during the pandemic, it forced new questions. Everyone had trauma or micro in different ways. And I think it just put a lot of stuff on its head of like, oh, because there were people that died. People that died. And it was right. Like, not great. And I think that when there was.A mindset shift, which which made which triggered a lot of questioning, at least, you know, I think in general for me, and I've noticed that for other people, where it was like, why of the just choices you've made in life making, you also realize, like, oh, to like, the what's in your control. It's like, oh, wait, I can choose these things and I can choose them differently that you hadn't thought to question before. And I feel like sometimes that questioning though, came up with my breakout. That's something that also just causes burnout for me because I'm always questioning and always seeking, which can also cause burnout. And so I think that's something at least I've noticed anecdotally for myself and others. And so I think that there is a burnout element just simply to that questioning that I think is maybe what my hypothesis of what is happening for some people anyway. Good point. I was going to say, bill, to your comment, literally right when you said that, I was noticing the same thing and something that I've been thinking about culturally. I think that it's more of a cultural norm. But for women to open up about these sorts of things and it's not. Generally something that is understood or not expected, that's the wrong word, but it's. From just a cultural norm. It's not something that there's the spaces as much necessarily or that of men to open up about things that get more emotional safety and physical safety and things of that nature. So I think that's, again, a hypothesis. I don't have research, but that's something that I have totally yeah, toxic masculinity, trying to figure out what is masculinity that's not toxic anyway.

Diana Pastrana

Well, and I think to that point, Annie, I think women are also more open about the multitude of responsibility that comes with family and work and all these things. And that does not mean that men do not have those responsibilities as well. But it is much more common for us to talk about them and build community around them and things like that. So I think it's probably not different, but it's probably just an approach difference.

Participant

No, we need more spaces, we need to shift that, Bill.

Diana Pastrana

Yeah.

Participant

A lot of times men will just put their head down and plow through. Right. And I've seen that my background was in the Air Force, so you see a difference between men and women in the Air Force. And I'm retired from the Air Force now, but now I'm a military spouse, my wife is still serving, so there's many times I'm the only male in the room. We go to training and it's me and the rest are all wives. Right. Because it's still largely men on active duty and women the spouses. But it's interesting to see the difference in dynamics of when or who will ask for help.

Diana Pastrana

Yes. Any last minute thoughts or questions? I have a comment. Yeah.

Participant

I think first of all, Diana, this was awesome.

Diana Pastrana

Thank you.

Participant

I have pages of notes too, that I'm going to go over, so I'm really excited. I think for me, one of mine was sometimes for me, there's an assumption that I am the strong person. And I think my burnout comes from me not being people not checking in on me. And I don't think it's intentional. I think people just assume, oh, she's the strong one, so she has it figured out, or she's okay, but that's definitely exhausting, if I'm honest. But also, I was telling my person in my breakup group also advocating for myself and letting people know also when I'm not feeling good. So I think it goes both ways, but for sure, I was feeling the burnout from the assumption that I'm the strong one.I can handle it.

Diana Pastrana

Yeah. So I can relate to that through my partner because I'm not the strong one. I'm the one who comes home and breaks down in tears, and I'm like, pay attention to me, but my partner is very much so that way. He's the rack for his friends. He's the rack for me, he's the rack for my kids. And I always tell him, you get to take up space too. And so tell yourself that you get to take up space too. You get to experience all the emotions. You get to have people spend time on you. And that's something that we have to work through together. Because I also have to remember when I'm having a bad day, that he's maybe also having a bad day or he's also feeling that burnout and that I need to leave room for him. I can't take up all the space and be like, oh, you get to have space too. Keep telling yourself that.

Participant

I would piggyback on that and say that if you're a leader in your organization and you are trying to be there as a resource for your team, but you have no one up your channel, that is a resource for you. It does compound things because you're absorbing and trying to solve things for other people, and sometimes you can't solve and then if you're very tender hearted, then you carry that with you for the rest forward too. So I think it's a real challenge sometimes when you're in a leadership role, you're trying to be the leader you're supposed to be, but it can wear you down.

Diana pastrana

Yeah. And in leadership, what about showing vulnerability, right, so that you make it acceptable and okay for other people to feel that, like, if you are not human in your leadership, then people don't feel like they can be safe to be human around you. So I think that there's a lot of work we have to do around vulnerability and leadership and this idea of projecting perfectionism versus reality. Amazing. One more thought. Go ahead, Don. I was going to say and to.

Participant

Kind of go off of what you guys were just saying, too. It's almost like that's where sometimes some of us leaders need that validation, but that's where other people already know or.

Diana Pastrana

Think that we have the validation. We need. But it's also just that check in, and then we only get that until we're vulnerable. And that's where I think it's hard showing up as a leader and corporate and all those kind of things, too. So that was kind of my other thing that kind of came up in our group, too.

Leah Roe

But sorry, Emily. Go ahead. Sorry, I'm going to say something before, Emily, but also check in on your leaders. Stephan emily particularly, do an incredible job of checking in on me and asking how I'm doing and my burnout and things like that. So if you're a leader, definitely get your people. But also, if you have a leader, check in on them. They're human, too.

Diana Pastrana

Absolutely. Such an amazing conversation. I want to be respectful of everybody's calendar, so Diana's contact information will be sent out to all of you if you have more questions or if you just want to have coffee with her and keep the conversation going.

Emily Smit

But thank you for all joining us this morning, and we'll see you next month for Culture Community. Thank you, everyone. Have a great day. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, miss.